tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9869579083065232382024-03-15T01:51:17.515+11:00Skeptical WestieA skeptical view point from the greater western suburbs of Sydney.Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-3787933881412055522011-09-23T20:49:00.000+10:002011-09-23T20:50:12.788+10:00Moderation and Censorship<div class="Textbody">
I know I have been on a
slightly extended hiatus from here (work, life, gorgeous girlfriend... etc) but
an issue has come up that sparked my motivation.</div>
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The Western Sydney
Freethinkers Facebook page has been alive with activity of late. This
originally started when several members visited a Coptic church which commenced
a very fruitful relationship. What followed was some intelligent and thoughtful
to and fro-ing between members of both groups, however the page has now come to
the attention of a couple of well... trolls, with one in-particular being a
conspiracy theorist.</div>
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The flood of dubious posts
has brought up the topic of censorship and moderation, with one option being
the separation of discussions with rules set by the original poster. While this
is a tempting idea, the word Moderation always leaves me with a bad taste;
whilst it certainly has its place i.e. illegal content, blatantly violent
threats (even that is a grey area) and any quote from that abysmal movie “Mean
Girls” (kill it with fire) I believe with the ability of personal blocking,
full page moderation is not required. </div>
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Now I “DO NOT” agree
with most of what is being said; actually I feel some of the ideas are
personally abhorrent; but that is all the more reason to leave them for all to
see, let the idiocy stand on its own wobbly, misinformed and deluded legs. The
idea of Skeptics groups, pages, blogs etc. should not be to exclusively talk
amongst ourselves, but instead plant the seed of doubt in the believer, show
the “Fence Sitter” that the two sides do not hold equal weight and more
importantly expand our own understanding of the world and the varying beliefs
that occupy it. </div>
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The WSFT have done this
very well, with members of varying backgrounds, relationships being sustained
with different churches, events and speakers focused on the idea of
education and understanding the opposing viewpoints. If all someone is doing is
trawling through the comments to find what they decree is “logical” then
they’re doing it wrong. I am all for ridiculing these people, using their
comments to test our degree of sarcasm and abilities at humour, but moderating
them on an open page is playing directly into their hands and fortifying their
beliefs. We need only look to the SAVN and their applaudable use of screenshots
for damming material while showing the public the AVN’s true nature as the AVN
moderate the hell out of the page, do we really want to hand out the same
ammunition?</div>
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Please don’t read this
as accommodationist nonsense; I am a firm believer and activist for “Do be a
Dickism” for people who clearly deserve it (anti-vaxers, 911 Truthers, theists
who need to resort to bizarre philosophical concepts to prove their god). So
here is a process of sorts (may require some expansion) as everyone loves a
flowchart... hmm, just me then?<br />
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In conclusion if you
really can’t stand it anymore just press “Block”; if you only wish to talk amongst
the like minded, create a closed group; as for moderation in terms of deletion or
exclusion in an open group, is just being hypocritical. </div>
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Cheers, </div>
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Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-38372793447606755622011-03-24T07:10:00.000+11:002011-03-24T07:10:16.402+11:00Save our Indoctrination<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjixWq1NIAQcDKsfTOnFX548r0vW_VoKBkuI4mssD9vIBL9oKqkRQkn6yeVIWgBBxsAR1f4UegZPWVIaqLJOIFNWQGUBjbTVGoP0QaPxEXjKTYJ5TBI4ByKG_j2PJpEOyUqVWa0qNvpWbD7/s1600/CDP2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><br />
</a></div>I received this letter in the mail accompanying a flyer for the CDP (christian Democratic Party).<br />
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiV1ZuH_WQ_SgqwKDFwGCSGEj1Pq-aG9ND6mHpj2XvvDIEySyPq8A93aZw78bzVAgFtwS07Gdat-oSBeO6BXqvnBkPKiXmcyzal_42mMqzBy1kGO5WExLjf4dQyrbKEVmGdlZA1VjHFNYEQ/s1600/Save+our+indoctrination2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiV1ZuH_WQ_SgqwKDFwGCSGEj1Pq-aG9ND6mHpj2XvvDIEySyPq8A93aZw78bzVAgFtwS07Gdat-oSBeO6BXqvnBkPKiXmcyzal_42mMqzBy1kGO5WExLjf4dQyrbKEVmGdlZA1VjHFNYEQ/s1600/Save+our+indoctrination2.jpg" /></a></div><br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">For those who aren't aware, over in Australia we have a class in public schools called "SRE" or "special religious education" and for many years those children who's parents opted out of this class where prohibited from attending any other educational instruction instead, so the kids are usually shoved in a room to do basically nothing. Along comes this idea for a <a href="http://www.ethics.org.au/content/ethics-based-complement-to-scripture" style="color: red;">Secular Ethics</a> class on an opt in basis for those not attending scripture. Please check out the above link for more information on the classes and check out the <a href="http://www.sydneyatheists.org/Education" style="color: red;">Sydney Atheists</a> for even more info, but for now let me take this letter point by point then on to the CDP.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjmjcgtX8gbjz3kOOnuyiL7CxMOMbNci2Q_9OUtE7Qx6IV3Zld1Zh0i_2PbXS25HQARlpuHAZzLq5z5NuNnS6AOk2smOseapiUoKnumOO2MqaPFNVDzOEiu7O4OIgCJzuca3ZOBPs0Y_RUH/s1600/SRE+1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjmjcgtX8gbjz3kOOnuyiL7CxMOMbNci2Q_9OUtE7Qx6IV3Zld1Zh0i_2PbXS25HQARlpuHAZzLq5z5NuNnS6AOk2smOseapiUoKnumOO2MqaPFNVDzOEiu7O4OIgCJzuca3ZOBPs0Y_RUH/s1600/SRE+1.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">Ummm sorry... replace??? Nope, supplement I think was the word you were looking for (or maybe not), parents still have the option of sending their kids to SRE but now there's another option and children aren't wasting important time accomplishing nothing just because they don't subscribe to your particular religion.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxT6EykeLG18NVIBgDNqmiJvBtW8FcLhIQwJkuHErnok_xTO5wYszYaP3BoNtApv1L3yGjqdXvG4lkKD97E8RKG9GZdyJlHMHy0ua3NdFoVLWsiv7rnl7qf68q4dAAT0l0gqrl7POFtI56/s1600/SRE+2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhxT6EykeLG18NVIBgDNqmiJvBtW8FcLhIQwJkuHErnok_xTO5wYszYaP3BoNtApv1L3yGjqdXvG4lkKD97E8RKG9GZdyJlHMHy0ua3NdFoVLWsiv7rnl7qf68q4dAAT0l0gqrl7POFtI56/s1600/SRE+2.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">30 years hey? Well if that is the case then you must have at some point taught me and I don't seem to recall delight coming from myself or any of my friends. So how exactly is scripture helping children with difficulties?? Is that by releasing all control to an all knowing ego maniacal imaginary friend that will punish you if you don't follow an exact (although open to interpretation for any purpose you so desire) set of rules. Or maybe by making them feel ashamed by their natural human urges. Or possibly by teaching them that life is so simple that all the answers can be found in a translation of a translation of a translation of a 2000 year old grouping together of various texts with dubious authorship , contradicting stories, blatantly unethical teachings and patently false accounts of history.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh-fsBBOONlMiWLWpm07xQCDkPO2HhbwqD4PxK-a9xgfAnShIlUsXt4aJrUTseT_yIkUATfvGdG5tNQk3b033mLy-vFyVIxMtdLk3k7W3fqoAhI0fgA_YESgFhCcn8TXNIT_kaHleV2PK0x/s1600/SRE+3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh-fsBBOONlMiWLWpm07xQCDkPO2HhbwqD4PxK-a9xgfAnShIlUsXt4aJrUTseT_yIkUATfvGdG5tNQk3b033mLy-vFyVIxMtdLk3k7W3fqoAhI0fgA_YESgFhCcn8TXNIT_kaHleV2PK0x/s1600/SRE+3.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">Ethics classes will enable children to work through ethical dilemmas and come to their own conclusion on whether an action is right, wrong or one of the many shades of grey and the reason behind it. Isn't it far better for children to figure out right and wrong on their own in a semi-controlled environment other than just dictated to from an authority. It is good for children to be exposed to differing viewpoints and again Ethics classes are not about being dictated too, but more so working through moral issues together. There is loads of information as well as videos on the net that show how these classes are conducted, so parents can get informed before "OPTING THEIR CHILDREN IN" to the Ethics course.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEilYn3AUl-Kost8_pdsRnuj98QQ9Jb3OOMn_xDI9xYgrxjpleQELeIkI-5eCTZ5JQKlHONN16TB8jW0tfkfHjRRIniMP4ivDpqvit7lpsxInNqb9Ud3LU5kSuv_Njlg6JePrRHKkVcuOHJ8/s1600/SRE+4.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEilYn3AUl-Kost8_pdsRnuj98QQ9Jb3OOMn_xDI9xYgrxjpleQELeIkI-5eCTZ5JQKlHONN16TB8jW0tfkfHjRRIniMP4ivDpqvit7lpsxInNqb9Ud3LU5kSuv_Njlg6JePrRHKkVcuOHJ8/s1600/SRE+4.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"> The Jesus portrayed in the bible was not particularly ethical by any modern standards, whilst there are some valuable ideas in there, they are in no way inherent to the faith and seriously you would expect the supposed son of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient creator would have been spot on. The Jesus in the bible bolsters the idea of women being akin to property, which if you really agree with that you have no place in modern society. Jesus also speaks of thought crimes being comparable to murder as well as infinite punishment for finite crimes. Freewill?? The very idea of a God that knows all, sees all and is all, is that we don't have a choice "everything is according to a plan" or as the line goes, which basically means that your whole existence is already mapped out, so technically you would not be responsible for your actions in such a world. If the christian god existed, we would be mere puppets controlled from before the beginning of time to play out a contrived plan set out by a ego-maniacal dictator who says "obey me" or else you'll spend eternity in torture.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEixTqAh4VHbNXYwIXRVuC0wNYnJlqjLvfUYsBY57WstJPE_ViFPk29KJtYS3EUCKSkLxq5QtVNY56XTd6IsCTJGhCvjZLn48j1cE9l3x88G40slzSnMN_W0jemqMfwaZ1dq1JlSyNBpOmIz/s1600/SRE+5.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEixTqAh4VHbNXYwIXRVuC0wNYnJlqjLvfUYsBY57WstJPE_ViFPk29KJtYS3EUCKSkLxq5QtVNY56XTd6IsCTJGhCvjZLn48j1cE9l3x88G40slzSnMN_W0jemqMfwaZ1dq1JlSyNBpOmIz/s1600/SRE+5.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">It would be far better for our kids to feel empowered to make the tough decisions on their own without relying on an outside influence to provide the answer for them. How are any children missing the opportunity of learning about their parents religion?? Again YOU HAVE THE CHOICE, Ethics classes are not being forced on anyone SRE will still be offered, not to mention sunday school, church services and here's a novel idea, how about teaching your children yourself, then you can spout whatever you want (within reason). As well I believe the writer has contradicted herself with the "His perfect plan for their lives" doesn't sound too conducive to free choice.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhSAL2frx_0RjpgsZclmw0bi5c_9RjdulFtUFlIC8CxMnwOJLKJZ9FEr88SLuOq8VMFzaKoYFnrbBxGkvrKa28nxefmELgQlZmg24tef8ExfGR-goAOGJmAeo0BqWJ8IBHF-ll7ckxEa1nA/s1600/SRE+6.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhSAL2frx_0RjpgsZclmw0bi5c_9RjdulFtUFlIC8CxMnwOJLKJZ9FEr88SLuOq8VMFzaKoYFnrbBxGkvrKa28nxefmELgQlZmg24tef8ExfGR-goAOGJmAeo0BqWJ8IBHF-ll7ckxEa1nA/s1600/SRE+6.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">Small highly vocal minority hey??? One quick Google search say most reports state an overwhelming majority support the move. Blatantly making unresearched statements and placing them in a letter does not make them true. Ummm... I feel like it is ground hog day... but screw it here we go again "Ethics classes are not frick'n compulsory", you're still free to indoctrinate your own children into whatever religion you happen to adhere too, I don't agree with your choice but I'll fight for your right to make it. On that same line of reasoning why can't we wait till they are more educated before introducing religion?? If it really is so good for us we would choose it later in life regardless of upbringing. </div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">Sorry that last statement is just abhorrent, if your moral compass is so screwed up you believe this is cruel, next to teaching children that all who won't subscribe to your particular brand of nuttery will burn forever in hell or moreover that the child themselves will burn if they don't follow these outdated set of rules, well maybe you would benefit from some structured Ethics classes.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
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</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">Another blatantly false set of statements, most parties support scripture in schools for those parents who wish their children to attend, but will also support Ethics classes for the rest of us. In fact I believe the Labor government wants to boost funding for the School Chaplaincy program.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhqMLHrXRJzHvm8Njr58TfxV0YubPnq81GrS5daHGbSsluEgRvBkE-5YL8wGZ05MGOImv0ebx-MzN6tmNaSvWyZm2OHUNLBFyYfSUr0KUXeODjfNIcJNvcTY_8E94w4erVr7IZjo84XE4Mg/s1600/SRE+8.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhqMLHrXRJzHvm8Njr58TfxV0YubPnq81GrS5daHGbSsluEgRvBkE-5YL8wGZ05MGOImv0ebx-MzN6tmNaSvWyZm2OHUNLBFyYfSUr0KUXeODjfNIcJNvcTY_8E94w4erVr7IZjo84XE4Mg/s1600/SRE+8.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">Yes we have a great reputation for being 'laid Back' and yes the non-religious have been apathetic in not speaking up about public schools pandering to religion, and outraged about our kids being ostracised in a classroom not doing anything constructive because of it. Ok, so our Australian christian heritage is so strong that religion appears just once in the Constitution <b>- </b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><b>Section 116 - Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion</b></div><blockquote>"The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth."</blockquote> But it doesn't seem like anyone wishes to pay the constitution any heed or seem to remember what our ancestors got up to when they arrived... Oh wait, sorry genocide and slavery are all common themes in christian heritage, so maybe your right.<br />
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May god richly bless you and your loved ones??? Unless you happen to believe something other than me, then please sit quietly in the corner why I indoctrinate your children and inform them why your going to hell.<br />
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You may think I have been too confronting with this issue, or I'm engaging in one long-winded rant (could be the case) but I attended two of these schools, my family went to these schools, I have lived in Emu Plains all my life and my parents have been here some 35+ years, I love it here and I hope to one day raise my own family here. I hate the thought that my children's precious education time and funding could go to teaching them 2000yo superstitions as truth, I'm all for teaching comparative religion or religious history of how these beliefs evolved over time but not when the blatant falsehoods described in the bible (and other so called sacred texts) are portrayed as being fact where they clearly fly in the face of all current scientific knowledge.<br />
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In short I don't support SRE at all, parents have ample opportunity to teach their children about their particular religion without impacting the education of those who don't subscribe to it. <br />
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Links:<br />
<div style="color: red;"><a href="http://www.ethics.org.au/">St James Ethics Centre</a></div><div style="color: red;"><a href="http://www.sydneyatheists.org/">Sydney Atheists</a></div><a href="http://www.nswvotes.org.au/policies/index.php?topic_ids=75">Party Responses to SRE</a><br />
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That's it for this post, I'll leave the SDP for another time.<br />
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Cheers,<br />
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</div>Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-7666829402776847112011-03-01T22:08:00.001+11:002011-03-01T22:08:50.552+11:00Three Thinkers Podcast - Ep #39<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-79RCORaQvot9Q-KmyjzD5OXjc41ZFrMF3aJNmsIyQpgsvQA6-rwbAS6Xqh-Fe7-AHittBho74BjVousf4CIo4EXg0pGtXx6h7TPmlI7LN1yJr_LAGSDB42iEcln9Od8h1odn3bql-g2r/s1600/ThreeThinkers-logo-300x300.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-79RCORaQvot9Q-KmyjzD5OXjc41ZFrMF3aJNmsIyQpgsvQA6-rwbAS6Xqh-Fe7-AHittBho74BjVousf4CIo4EXg0pGtXx6h7TPmlI7LN1yJr_LAGSDB42iEcln9Od8h1odn3bql-g2r/s1600/ThreeThinkers-logo-300x300.jpg" /></a></div><br />
A group from the Western Sydney Freethinkers attended a Faith Healing at the New Life Church in Rouse Hill. While we intend to post a thorough take down of the night, I wanted to get this out there as soon as possible due to the events discussed may come around before we have a chance. <br />
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In this episode we also discuss a certain Sydney Politician (very much a surprise) that was present at the event and his push for policy not because the population calls for it but because his particular religious belief demands it.<br />
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Bigotry and ignorance is alive in Sydney and it prays to push itself on the rest of us.<br />
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Subscribe on iTunes and Visit<b> <a href="http://www.threethinkers.com/">The Three Thinkers</a></b> <br />
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Cheers,Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-75589025271019995762011-02-22T18:25:00.000+11:002011-02-22T18:25:34.307+11:00Freethought Bookshop<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"></div><br />
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<div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">A quick plug for our friends over at The Rationalist Association of NSW and their Freethought Bookshop, details are as follows:</span></div><br />
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<div style="text-align: right;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"></div><div style="float: left; margin: 0pt 10px 5px 0pt;"><iframe frameborder="0" height="300" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" scrolling="no" src="http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=&q=58+regent+st+chippendale&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=58+Regent+St,+Chippendale+New+South+Wales+2008&gl=au&ll=-33.887375,151.20183&spn=0.021375,0.025749&z=14&iwloc=A&output=embed" width="300"></iframe><br />
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<small><a href="http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=&q=58+regent+st+chippendale&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=58+Regent+St,+Chippendale+New+South+Wales+2008&gl=au&ll=-33.887375,151.20183&spn=0.021375,0.025749&z=14&iwloc=A&source=embed" style="color: blue; text-align: left;">View Larger Map</a></small></div><div style="text-align: center;"><br />
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</div><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: center;">Freethought Bookshop </div></div><div style="text-align: center;"><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: center;">The Rationalist association of NSW</div><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: center;">58 Regent St Chippendale 2008 NSW Australia</div><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: center;">Established 1912 </div><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: center;">Bookshop Tel: (02)9698 2933</div><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: center;">Atheist & Rationalist literature</div><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: center;">Opening hours: 4:30pm-7:30pm</div><div style="text-align: center;"><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">1st, 2nd & 4th Thursday of each Month</div><br />
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<div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif; text-align: left;">So if your in the Sydney area please drop in, peruse their selection and have a chat with your friendly local Rationalist.</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><b><i>Cheers,</i></b></div></div><div style="text-align: center;"></div><div style="text-align: center;"></div><div style="text-align: center;"></div></div>Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-61016748566064910652010-12-23T22:13:00.001+11:002011-03-05T18:59:43.160+11:00<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjRLMa0AGe7qTLDAROfmF8qv-DOtDDreIbFoLo8SwOnv-ptQH3XrR1lCLM-mzFyuZoGssXwP74thsiQfY6CnbOK0mlZMQ87dntf_5cAW3mfXy8q9df8FYsw2ZregVM_UaaONt-cqwM7mn3k/s1600/Collision.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjRLMa0AGe7qTLDAROfmF8qv-DOtDDreIbFoLo8SwOnv-ptQH3XrR1lCLM-mzFyuZoGssXwP74thsiQfY6CnbOK0mlZMQ87dntf_5cAW3mfXy8q9df8FYsw2ZregVM_UaaONt-cqwM7mn3k/s1600/Collision.jpg" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"></div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"></div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOdq5ZAccIJWCbOc087GBE5w1ENVr0sJQSCEt_LgoE0Doe3fJ4uhVItKMUjft74gqxTod9qO2oZlKzvi5FsliUR9F5WRZccrkqAGz-7j4W_fpTXbEZ4hbaKJsxxQ1xlclA-1DOQa0U0DwQ/s1600/Atheism%252C+atheist%252C+Christian+apologetics%252C+Christopher+Hitchens%252C+Doug+Wilson.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="257" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOdq5ZAccIJWCbOc087GBE5w1ENVr0sJQSCEt_LgoE0Doe3fJ4uhVItKMUjft74gqxTod9qO2oZlKzvi5FsliUR9F5WRZccrkqAGz-7j4W_fpTXbEZ4hbaKJsxxQ1xlclA-1DOQa0U0DwQ/s320/Atheism%252C+atheist%252C+Christian+apologetics%252C+Christopher+Hitchens%252C+Doug+Wilson.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>On Thursday 9/12, a few members from the Western Sydney Freethinkers attended a screening of “Collision”, a movie that follows Christopher Hitchens (no intro needed) and Douglas Wilson (A christian pastor) through a series of public talks about the morality of Christianity. The screening was hosted by the Emu Plains Community Centre Baptist Church, with church members/christian guests making up about 85% of the audience. After the movie there was a Q & A with Ian Bryce (Australian Secular party, Sydney Atheists, Australian Sceptics) and Dr Andrew Ford (Moore Theological College).</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">According to our MC, both Hitchens and Wilson were shown the movie in its final cut and both agreed that it was even handed. One opinion could be that it was even handed because although Hitchens wins most of the arguments using rational arguments, Wilson (and the christian side) was portrayed in style that was meant to show how moral, patriotic and wholesome christianity is. </div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">For example:</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 0.74cm;"><br />
</div><ul><li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">While Hitchens was shown in his study, on his own, surrounded by books and drinking whiskey, Wilson was shown at the dinner table with his family in jovial spirits while singing grace.</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">As a bible passage was being read by Wilson, the camera cut away to a shot of the American flag waving in the breeze.</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">The background music was often dark and brooding when showing montages of Hitchens in day to day activities.</div></li>
</ul><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 0.74cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Of particular note was the look of jubilation on the faces of the christian contingent whilst the scenes of children singing hymns was showing.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">The movie did have some humorous moments, such as light-hearted bickering between the two speakers and boxing/wrestling music as a lead up to each speech. Irony was lost on Douglas when he utilsed the analogy of God being a jailer while your chained to a wall, used in the context of not being able to touch the jailer but the jailer can choose to touch you.We could go on to describe the movie for you so you don’t have to watch it, but essentially the arguments were</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><u>Hitchens</u> </div><ul><li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Religion stops progress</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">The bible has lots of immoral rules, such as how to keep slaves and to kill your enemies (every man, woman, child & beast)</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Religion has been used by those in power to control the masses</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Humans have evolved their own moral code that is necessary for the species to continue existing</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">The churches themselves have evolved with the progression of society, which would have been impossible with an omnipotent/omniscient god.</div></li>
</ul><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 0.64cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><u>Douglas</u></div><ul><li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">All morality is attributed to god whether you are a believer or an atheist, but poor/no morals are a result of godlessness.</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">The first world is so successful and moral because of the high percentage of christian citizens.</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Atheists have no father figure watching over them, so they are more likely to be immoral (have a good time!).</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Stalin was an atheist, and that is why he was evil.</div></li>
<li><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Why would an atheist care what happened, if there is no purpose to the world?</div></li>
</ul><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><u><b>Q&A with Ian Bryce & Dr Andrew Ford</b></u></div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">After the movie screening we were treated to a Q&A with representatives from both sides. As previously mentioned the Atheist contingent was out numbered but was by no means out classed. From my perspective; biased as it may be; Ian did a fantastic job, precisely and clearly answering the questions thrown by the crowd, he pulled no punches and always went straight at the heart of the matter, constantly reiterating that Christianity is nothing more than superstitious nonsense.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">The Q&A was when we were the most riled up, Ian was forced into the defence position from the onset, Andrew was allowed to sit back smugly answering questions with whatever nonsense he could muster and the audience ate it up. </div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Andrew liked to play the morality card discussing the various outreach programs and how the church helps people, although not going into specifics. But when questioned on where morality comes from the issue was shrugged off stating “That's a debate for another time”. Ian on the other hand backed it up with the observation that morals evolved over time independent of religious teaching and the religions eventually adopted it as their own.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Ian made a great point (this is paraphrasing) that religion has no real world explaining power, where as the scientific method (conclusion through experimentation) is responsible for all human advances for example; brushing your teeth, washing and general hygiene, these are things that the apparent omniscient god did not advise about, so on that scale science 1,000,000,000,000 – Religion 0.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
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</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><u><b>Post Q&A discussion with Christians: An unthinking enemy</b></u></div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><div style="color: white;"><u><b>Jay-</b></u></div><br />
I would have to admit that I was a little bit apprehensive about attending this event, not because I felt I may have a change of mind or a religious epiphany and run off screaming “hallelujah praise Jeebus” down the street, but more so because I wasn't sure if my arguments would hold up against the believers, the people who have devoted their life to a deity and have been (by their own admission) touched by the holy spirit. Well my friends, I must sadly report that my judgements of christianity where very wrong... I gave them far too much credit.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Firstly arguing Jesus existence in a hypothetical manner by saying “if there were a man who performed all these miracles, who rose from the dead, wouldn't he deserve our praise?” well yes... The same as Spiderman should for taking down Dr Octopus. </div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=986957908306523238" name="ctl00_cp_lblContent"></a>I received an argument that because Jesus' life was written about in four separate books therefore it must be true, well I pointed out that given that logic, there must be an island out there with Dinosaurs cloned from 65 million year old blood found in a mosquito encased in amber. An addition to this was the “How come so many people believe in Jesus then, if it were just a fable, the belief system would not have endured” Well we can see well documented evidence of how a belief system/Religion/Mythical figure can rise e.g. Scientology, Mormonism, FSM (I'm aware it's a parody but give it time), Harry Kenwell... to quote a great Atheist comedian and songwriter Tim Minchin ”I don't believe just 'cos ideas are tenacious it means they're worthy”. </div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgf_-b4z_f9dqwl8_vpeDwBn0JH7Xi8fTcfuQ43ia0b278vdK9dn2Gh5okNoEhDbDvxCt3aN7K7aBzyFdDpUapT-j48qITM6B26qMihivHr9j9LxWU7_lnaXCvE8uJ0_G-bRd3Y0-0s4vNB/s1600/circular-reasoning.png" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="200" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgf_-b4z_f9dqwl8_vpeDwBn0JH7Xi8fTcfuQ43ia0b278vdK9dn2Gh5okNoEhDbDvxCt3aN7K7aBzyFdDpUapT-j48qITM6B26qMihivHr9j9LxWU7_lnaXCvE8uJ0_G-bRd3Y0-0s4vNB/s200/circular-reasoning.png" width="200" /></a></div>The constant barrage of fallacies was testing our resolve, everywhere we turned they were firing them off as though scripted... Bang!! take a personal incredulity. Whack!! have a Bandwagon and for good measure take some special pleading, a straw man and several general Non Sequitur's.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">I was very surprised at how easy it was to identify the flaws in their logic, that's the good thing about a circle, there's a lot of empty space at it's centre. </div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
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</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><div style="color: white;"><u><b>Bronwyn-</b></u></div><br />
<span style="font-family: Times New Roman,serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">The arguments presented by the Christian side were essentially the same that are always presented, but even Hitchens acknowledged in the film that it is rare in a debate that you’d hear an argument you’ve never heard before. “Irreducible complexity” is the idea that some biological structures are too complex to be subject to evolution, and it was argued as a way to dismiss the theory of evolution as a whole. It was thrown around with smug faces that didn’t wait to hear a rebuttal. But since there is no “real” evidence for evolution anyway, I guess we’re pretty silly to continue with this position of “faith”. After all, it’s preposterous that we evolved from monkeys! There seemed to be a common belief that if evolution can be discredited, then Christianity is the only logical conclusion, which is of course a false dichotomy. There was also confusion about the meaning of the word theory in a scientific context, and the argument that evolution has never been “proven”.</span></span></div><div align="LEFT" style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div align="LEFT" style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman,serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">When discussing morality, they attempted to convince us that Hitler and Stalin were both atheists, and therefore atheism is immoral. Good thing that nothing bad has ever been done in the name of Christianity, otherwise wouldn’t that be embarrassing. In Q&A time, a Christian man asked the representatives from both the Christian and Atheist sides to list their charitable involvements, on the assumption that whether or not you believe in a god determines how charitable you are. So much for being humble.</span></span></div><div align="LEFT" style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div align="LEFT" style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman,serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">After all was said and done, I doubt any minds were changed, and I’d bet that they will continue to use these same arguments over and over. But for all the facepalming, Christopher Hitchens definitely made the night worth it.</span></span></div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
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</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><div style="color: white;"><u><b>Bob-</b></u></div><br />
I chatted with two young men who decided that they would enlighten me as to how evolution was false. Their argument was simple – There aren’t enough transitional fossils, using the artists impression of “Descent of Man” as literal evidence. I tried to point out that every time a new so called transitional fossil is found, it creates 2 new gaps on each side, and that there aren’t any big leaps but minor changes over many generations to create any significant change. Their retort to that was – “why aren’t there fossils of each particular change in each species?” My reply “Fossils are very rare in relation to how many creatures have been alive throughout history, not everything gets fossilised”. Apparently that answer fits suspiciously too well, and they decided they wouldn’t pursue that point because I had too much “faith” in science/evidence/reality.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">Then one guy decided it was time to bring up irreducible complexity, so I simply stated that his argument was invalid, and to try something else (I call it the “Dawkin’s Law”, in a similar vein to “Godwin’s Law”).</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">I also talked to one man who claimed that because there actually is a Jerusalem, Jesus must have existed, because Jerusalem is in the bible.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgoiwN2ZNb9i1yBewhmMH4MKpYuAzG2K0g1rPItxFh9aX-9RvwrO47zpOF6FOZwrvNzOg1RviXNlzbK7t5DHEH0535bPfsTzyNsZ2FdI4OZN2RrtrTZbUbARPmVexOl-li11-4WgIJ6XRE5/s1600/DoubleFacePalm.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="256" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgoiwN2ZNb9i1yBewhmMH4MKpYuAzG2K0g1rPItxFh9aX-9RvwrO47zpOF6FOZwrvNzOg1RviXNlzbK7t5DHEH0535bPfsTzyNsZ2FdI4OZN2RrtrTZbUbARPmVexOl-li11-4WgIJ6XRE5/s320/DoubleFacePalm.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">??????</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">He then went on to say that because there are no remains of Jesus Christ, which is proof he rose from the dead and later ascended into the heavens.</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;">FACEPALM!!!!!!</div><div style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><br />
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Special thanks to Bob & Bronwyn.</div>Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-43636324666895280212009-12-18T20:50:00.001+11:002009-12-18T23:01:46.710+11:00"Holistic" Nonsense - Final ResponseThis is an email exchange that occurred at my workplace. We receive a publication via email called "Be Well" sent by Peak Health Management <a href="http://www.peakhealth.com.au/online_wellness_magazine.aspx">http://www.peakhealth.com.au/online_wellness_magazine.aspx</a> and is distributed across the whole company regardless of individual consent. The article in question was regarding Reflexology.<br />
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<div style="text-align: left;"><i>Hello,<br />
<br />
I'm writing in response to an article about reflexology. Whilst I have read your disclaimer, I believe you still have a responsibility to ensure that the information presented within your articles is based on current and legitimate medical and scientific research.<a name='more'></a> The underlining principles of reflexology has no physiological mechanism for which it could possibly have any effect especially in regards to organs or any body part other than the immediate area that is being touched and thus would only have the same relaxation benefit as regular massage. The notion of a so called qualified expert and also the fact the article is presented next to legitimate health advice gives an air of legitimacy to an otherwise dubious practice. With all the bad information people can find now, I believe that any reduction in misinformation is a very good thing especially when it's something that is being sent and not just searched for.<br />
<br />
Thank you.</i><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;"><i><b>And the Reply...</b></i><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><i>Dear Jay,<br />
<br />
Thankyou for your email, we are always very pleased to hear from Be Well readers.<br />
<br />
Be Well Magazine has quite intentionally been designed to be "holistic". Here on the production team, we recognise that all individuals have their own ideas about what constitutes "wellness", and we know that personal choices available (by way of remedies, treatments, preventatives and practices) are endless!<br />
<br />
Supplementing the traditionally medical or clinic approaches (topics this month include cholesterol, lung disease and skin cancer) are natural or alternative approaches - including reflexology, massage, beauty, acupuncture, herbs, aromatherapy, etc. We love a little bit of everything to mix it up and keep our publication interesting and varied.<br />
<br />
This month's article on Reflexology sits in the "Naturally Well" pillar of the magazine, and quite clearly opens with the statement: "Reflexology is an alternative wellness practice." It also states that the practice is based on the "belief" that reflex points correspond to parts of the body - not based on the "scientific fact". I do sincerely hope that you have not been offended by the inclusion of this topic; we merely want to spread the word about all the different types of services available to us here in Australia, including those that may be seen as a little "left-field".<br />
<br />
You will find on the contributors' page that the magazine authors include doctors, nurses, dietitians, exercise physiologists, naturopaths and peak bodies for topic areas such as mental health, occupational health and safety, etc. We deliberately seek information from reputable organisations / foundations / associations as they have access to the most up-to-date and accurate information in their given field.<br />
<br />
You are more than welcome to send through any other comments you may have - or any topic requests for upcoming editions.<br />
<br />
Warm regards,</i><br />
<br />
Emily Troise<br />
Editor | Be Well Magazine<br />
PEAK Health Management<br />
Building 3, 11-12 Phillip Court<br />
PORT MELBOURNE VIC 3207<br />
Represented in all states<br />
Ph: 1300 360 107<br />
<a href="http://www.peakhealth.com.au/">www.peakhealth.com.au</a><br />
<br />
<br />
Ok, so I haven't replied to this as yet but believe me I will be doing so and I will post all updates as they occur and I also intend on replying to the staff member that arranged for the distribution.<br />
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<div style="text-align: center;">Cheers<br />
<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: left;">Hello again, the following is the next instalment in this little exchange, sent 17/12/09.<br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: small;"><i>Dear Emily,<br />
</i></span><br />
</div><span style="font-size: small;"><i> <br />
<br />
</i></span><br />
<div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: small;"><i> Thank you for taking the time to reply and I do apologise that time restraints have not allowed me to respond sooner.<br />
<br />
I do understand and also endorse the notion of personal choice as everyone has the right to choose what goes into and what happens to their own body. My objection is when the information handed to people is of a deceptive nature, there is a reason for the term "Alternative Medicine" as any treatment that has gone through legitimate clinical testing and proven to work beyond the placebo effect is considered just Medicine. When the so called alternative practices including but in no way limited to the examples you give below undergo the rigorous testing that mainstream medical practices go through, like double blind testing, the results show they produce an effect no better than placebo if any.<br />
<br />
A problem arises when people who may be desperate or who don't know any better turn to these dubious modalities instead of seeking mainstream medical care and the practitioners gladly accept the business. Giving these "quacks" a public podium which is delivered and not just searched for (one of my larger concerns with the publication) is somewhat negligent. The general public is somewhat naïve of the actual evidence for these practices and allocating space for them next to legitimate scientifically proven medical advice can confuse the public especially when not presented with all the facts.<br />
<br />
You say you "seek information from reputable organisations". Well I'd like to ask what your definition of reputable is, especially in regards to alternative medicine practices. A governing body of an unscientific, unproven highly improbable claim giving credence to a practitioner peddling that same claim should probably warrant further investigation, just because a person has received some kind of training even to the level of doctorate does not automatically entail that particular modality is legitimate or that practice is even moral.<br />
<br />
I do not write this to personally offend yourself, only to possibly get you and your team to think about the content of your publication, "belief" in a unproven practice should not be a part of a public health advice magazine and again especially not one that gets sent and not just searched for.<br />
<br />
<br />
Thank you, </i></span><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;">Please stay tuned for further developments.<br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;">Cheers<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;"><i><b>18/12/09</b></i><br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;">The reply didn't take long and I think you'll understand why...<br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><span style="font-size: small;"><i>Hi Jay,<br />
<br />
Thankyou for your feedback.<br />
I appreciate the time you have taken to send this through.<br />
<br />
<br />
Merry Christmas,<br />
<br />
Emily Troise</i></span><br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: small;">Hmm... I will have to have a think about the points she brought forward in that response.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><i> <br />
</i></span><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"> I will be bringing this to the attention of the company come Monday in the hopes that they make a more informed choice in the publications they send out to employees. A positive has already come out of this exchange, a few of my colleagues at our particular office agree with me and are happy someone is bringing this to our company's attention. I will post any response I get from my company but it is a fair assumption that this will be the last we will hear from 'Be Well Magazine'... Well in this correspondence anyway.<br />
</span><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><i><br />
</i></span><br />
<div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: small;"><b>Cheers</b><i><br />
</i></span><br />
</div></div></div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div>Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-80290100742043798152009-10-18T10:40:00.002+11:002010-05-23T22:21:22.460+10:00I denounce my evil Atheist ways...God hath spoken to me at 4:15am Sunday 18th October, via an anonymous mobile phone call from a young lady regurgitating Bible verses who then proceeded to invite me to their local Bible studies group at 6pm that night, well I'm converted... Not!<br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
<br />
This young girl stated that God was speaking through her, here is how the the conversation went, (this may not be an exact transcript of the conversation as it was 4:15am and I had to ask my partner later if I had dreamed it)<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;"><blockquote>Ring... Ring...</blockquote><blockquote style="color: black;">Hello</blockquote><blockquote style="color: red;"><blockquote><blockquote>(Insert random Bible Verse here)</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div style="color: black;">Ok who is this?</div><br />
<div style="color: red;">I was just wondering if you will come to our Bible studies group tonight?</div><br />
You do realise that it's 4:45 in the morning<br />
(I later realised that my clock is running 1/2 hour fast)<br />
<br />
<div style="color: red;">Yes, but God doesn't sleep.</div><br />
Right... Who is this again???<br />
<br />
<div style="color: red;">The voice of God</div><br />
Right... You don't sound like him.<br />
<br />
<div style="color: red;">God's speaking through me.</div><br />
Ok... Can't he speak for himself?<br />
<br />
<div style="color: red;">Gods very busy</div><br />
Right... so you speak to God?<br />
<br />
<div style="color: red;">Yes</div><br />
Ok...<br />
<br />
<div style="color: red;">So will you come to our Bible studies group tonight?</div><br />
I don't think so<br />
<br />
(This was the point I believe I actually woke up and realised what was going on)<br />
<br />
<div style="color: red;">Well just let me recite another Verse from the Bible</div><br />
I hung up.<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;">This was not the end of it as I placed my phone on silent and it continued to ring twice more, I was left a voice-mail message, (exact transcript)</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><blockquote><div style="text-align: center;">Hi, we spoke about 2 seconds ago and I think we got disconnected, I just want to give you the details of our Bible group just in case you'd be interested in coming, it's at the *I'll leave the location out* if you'd like to come its at 6 o'clock, ok bye</div></blockquote><br />
<div style="text-align: left;">So, umm... I don't really know where to start on this one, it is certainly a tactic that I haven't encountered before. Lets take this one point at a time.</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><ul style="text-align: left;"><li>This girl believes that she is the voice of God</li>
<li>She speaks to God regularly</li>
<li>God wants her to spread his word at 4:15 in the morning</li>
<li>She has my Mobile phone number... And God doesn't or maybe he can't get any reception<br />
</li>
</ul><br />
<div style="text-align: left;">In closing I believe there are far better books, written by far more reliable sources that warrant and deserve discussion and study. The Bible should only be used as a time capsule to observe the thoughts, beliefs and practices of the period in which that particular section was written and even then only when backed up with scientific evidence.</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;">To the anonymous girl who rang, I would be more than happy to discuss my view on things as long as you take the time to understand why I (for lack of a better word) believe there is no God and also not between the hours of 8pm & 7am (9am on weekends) as even Atheists need our sleep.</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;">Cheers</div><br />
<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
</blockquote><blockquote> </blockquote></div>Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-986957908306523238.post-8478779490120853932009-10-03T17:05:00.001+10:002009-12-18T22:59:23.590+11:00A new signHi all,<br />
<br />
I really wanted my first post to be something substantial, explaining who i am, who i was and the journey in between but instead i feel i must continue while I'm still on this particular thought train.<br />
<br />
<div style="border: medium none;">I came across this sign today on The Great Western Highway at Katoomba (in the Blue Mountains, NSW AUS). <br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg3U-ugJhIlJawU4HxPEYK2lBKNL9JO8rQR1eaLHkNh4-RgT6M0e6jLHfjpBnMH48RyEUxL8o9zB-47vSQ1wSmwTMznLu8eIpuejdZayYdJdTRp6uI_kJHkvL-PDlLh0sciXqS7QMWy5Xzl/s1600-h/015.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img $r="true" border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg3U-ugJhIlJawU4HxPEYK2lBKNL9JO8rQR1eaLHkNh4-RgT6M0e6jLHfjpBnMH48RyEUxL8o9zB-47vSQ1wSmwTMznLu8eIpuejdZayYdJdTRp6uI_kJHkvL-PDlLh0sciXqS7QMWy5Xzl/s320/015.JPG" /></a><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;">It states "Jesus all about Life"<br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: left;">This got me thinking, what would be a suitable companion to this display of religious fervor...<br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: left;">So yes I'm going to use my first post for a list of possible "signs of logic" to adorn the space next to this wonder of medieval thinking.<br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;">"Science - explaining how it actually happened"<br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;">"Evidence - No imaginary friend necessary"<br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;">"The Big Bang - Not a scientific term for orgy"<br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;">"God - Would your friend tell you to burn things"<br />
<br />
"Religion - Perfecting hatred since conception"<br />
<br />
"Religion - Institutionalised segregation" <br />
<br />
"Evolution - You wouldn't be here without it"<br />
<br />
"Science - Natural explanations... are way cooler than supernatural ones"<br />
<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: left;">So that's all i really got for now, but i will add more should an epiphany strike, or if anyone has any to add please keep this going.<br />
</div><div style="text-align: left;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;">I promise my next post will be bit more insightful... hopefully...<br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="text-align: center;">Cheers<br />
</div><br />
<br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;"><br />
</div><div style="border: medium none; clear: both; text-align: center;"><br />
</div>Skeptical Westiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10664801953043742879noreply@blogger.com0